Talk:Loptr/@comment-1971498-20141231170221/@comment-1661895-20150101222748

What also needs to be remembered is that that Loptr only refers to his pawns failing him after both Bayonetta and Loki are still not stopped in their journey outright by either Balder or Valor ("Another failure"). In fact, that scene only happens after Valor in unable to win in his battle, hinting that the angels are another one of his tools. As I've said before in accordance to DementedP's points, I admit I now see it as debatable as to whether or not the angels were truly under his control or whether Loptr had simply managed to have to angels' interest align with his without assuming direct control, but that scene does imply that they are a part of his machinations.

Both myself and DemendtedP seem to be on the same track of saying that Loptr needs Loki to be brought to him in a physical sense in order to take the Sovereign Power. The reason I say that it doesn't matter whether Loki is alive or dead is because of the uncaring attitude of the angels and Balder as to Loki's survival. Loptr even gives Balder free reign to kill Loki as part of his revenge when they finally meet on Fimbulventr, before he has taken the Sovereign Power for himself. If Loki needed to be alive to do that, then Loptr encouraging Balder to strike Loki down there and then wouldn't make sense. If anything, this implies that Loki doesn't need to be alive. He just needs to be there in a physical sense so that his power can be taken, hence Glamor's idea of not seeming to care if Loki survives the journey or not and Balder being allowed to fight Loki on multiple occasions (including a fight during Chapter IX where Loptr is actually there and yet does not stop Balder from trying to kill Loki).

The Sovereign Power is only explained as being something that can freely 'control' the Eyes and was created as a back up plan in case Aesir's good half felt that they would need to be used to maintain the balance caused by his splitting apart. Loptr says as much as soon as he takes it from Loki, claiming he can now control them as he sees fit. To me, this seems to explain how he is able to use the Eyes together at once in order to reawaken Aesir's power specifically, since the Eyes have only been said to awaken the "power of creation" in the past. As for Balder, Loptr summons him there as a manipulative tool. He uses the past events of appearing as Loki to make Balder go after him, especially as he says multiple times that he promised Balder the ability to exact this false revenge. We also know what happens when a host of the Eye dies. If there is not a successor, as there originally were with the Lumen Sages and Umbra Witches, then its influence is lost from the world forever.

Glamor may have captured Loki rather than try to kill him like Valor, but again her attitude of not caring about Loki's survival only adds to the idea that Loki doesn't need to be alive when he is brought to Loptr, only physically taken to him so that his Sovereign Power can be extracted. The only risk Loki ran of being taken to Inferno was because of Bayonetta's slap-dash attitude to the fight and the fact that she nearly forgot about him in the thrill of the battle. After all, apart from the self-sacrifice attitude of the Virtues in the first game, no angel seems to be expect to be beaten by her.

The other angels also are not trying to attack Loki in almost every instance they appear. They always attack Bayonetta whereas Loki hides as his animal form in her chest. Even if this is for strictly gameplay purposes, the only times Loki is targeted specifically is during his first real appearance, the Glamor fight and 2 of the Masked Lumen fights. Apart from that, there are plenty of instances where Loki and Bayonetta are seperated and Loki is not attacked even once by anything (such as when he is able to meet Luka after managing to somehow escape from Inferno and the underground areas of Fimbulventr with little difficulty).

In my past points about the apparent contradictory nature about Loptr needing Loki to reach him but not the mountain itself, which I admit is a little confusing to think of an explanation for, I've stated that I think it is due to the vast number of Remembrances of Time that scatter the entire area, both above and below ground. The more Loki travels through Noatun, the more his memories begin to return about who he is and what he can do. If Loki remembered everything, then Loptr ran the risk of Loki escaping like he had done 500 years before and having to start his entire scheme over from the beginning. But if Loki is taken directly to the top of Fimbulventr and left unexposed to these visions of the past, then he is all the more oblivious to the powers and abilities he has which would halt Loptr's plans in their tracks.

As for the angels, my reasons for this apparent aid of Loptr's goals can be explained away because of the blatant deception of other parties by the angels regarding the Eyes before. In the distant past, Fortitudo outright admits that they had purposely steered Balder into starting the Witch Hunts so that both of the clans would die out and the Eyes would be free to take for themselves. That way, Jubileus could then remake the universe with their power to make Paradiso the dominant of the Trinity. It's the main goal by which the angels and Paradiso operates, doing whatever it takes in order to come out on top. If that means that they will use what they can to achieve that goal, whether it be through deception or doing something that they do not want to do, then so be it. In the first Bayonetta alone, Sapientia outright explains his contempt for Balder, claiming that his "human ineptitude" is what caused the previous ressurecton attempt to fail. He also implies that the angels see his reliability as an issue during the events of Bayonetta and yet they still aid Balder in his efforts to bring Bayonetta to him so that Jubileus can be reborn.

I see no reason why they wouldn't want to do the same with Loptr's schemes, especially since his idea of bringing both of the Eyes together in one place in order to unlock the power of creation is nearly the same plan the older Balder had tried. With Loptr having brought the Right Eye back into existence from the past, it is too tempting an opportunity for them to pass up, especially since they have been shown to deceieve and lie as well as indulge in actions they do not fully approve of in order to achieve their ultimate goal. Whether they would be sucessfull in this endeavour, I cannot say. After all, as I said before, most of the angels do not anticipate to be defeated by Bayonetta and yet still are, so it may have been a plan of overconfidence from the start since it never bears fruition. But if they were planning to take the Eyes in some manner, then it would explain why they seem to be aiding Loptr despite their conflicting overall interests.